G-K0F4D5MY2P Transcending Fear-Based Thoughts: Insights from Louise K. - Tracking Wisdom

Episode 12

Transcending Fear-Based Thoughts: Insights from Louise Kay (Reaction to Next Level Soul interview)

Tracking Wisdom

Season 1 Episode 12

Transcending Fear-Based Thoughts: Insights from Louise Kay (Reaction to Next Level Soul interview)

Recorded - 09/16/24

DESCRIPTION

This episode features a deep dive into the concept of awareness and its relationship to the ego, as discussed by Louise K in her interview with Next Level Soul Podcast. The hosts, Ryan and Peter, react to her insights, particularly her assertion that all fear-based thoughts stem from the egoic mind and how recognizing these thoughts can lead to greater personal freedom. The conversation explores the challenges of navigating conditioned responses and the importance of shifting attention away from negative thoughts to cultivate a deeper sense of presence and consciousness. The hosts also touch on the cultural influences that shape our perceptions and responses to life's challenges, emphasizing the need for mindfulness and embodied awareness. Ultimately, the discussion highlights the significance of integrating these teachings into daily practice to foster authentic self-expression and connection to one's true essence.

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Transcript
Host:

Beginner's mind.

Host:

Welcome back.

Host:

Views, interpretations, and opinions expressed are not advice nor official positions presented on behalf of any organization or institution.

Host:

They are for informational and entertainment purposes only.

Host:

Now join Ryan and Peter for another episode of the tracking Wisdom podcast.

Ryan:

Welcome back, everybody.

Ryan:

I'm Ryan.

Host:

I'm Peter.

Ryan:

Good morning.

Ryan:

Good morning.

Ryan:

So today we're going to do a reaction video to the next Level Soul podcast who interviewed Louise K.

Ryan:

On Louise K's website.

Ryan:

Louise K.net.

Ryan:

l o u I s e k a Y.net, she talks about embodied awareness and explorations in truth.

Ryan:

Through the practice of embodied awareness, you can awake to your true self, discover your purpose, and live a fulfilled life of joy, passion, and creative expression.

Ryan:

So Peter and I are going to listen to this episode, and we're going to provide our own insights and thoughts as she speaks.

Ryan:

She's an engaging and interesting person in the realm of spiritual awakening and integration.

Ryan:

So here we go.

Ryan:

Yes.

Host:

Okay.

Ryan:

All right.

Ryan:

Let's do this thing.

:

Everything that's happening in your life is not by chance.

:

It's like it's divinely orchestrated, specifically tailored to you, exactly what you need in order to fulfill your potential, to access the deeper dimension where right now, everything is perfect.

Ryan:

So that was the teaser.

Peter:

Welcome back to the show.

Peter:

Returning champion Luis K.

Peter:

Hey, Luis.

:

Hi.

:

Thanks.

:

I'm really happy to be back here on your show.

Peter:

Yeah, last time we spoke was about two years ago, and I just remember I had such a pleasure.

Peter:

It was such a pleasure talking to you.

Peter:

You're such a.

Peter:

You have such wonderful energy, and you have such a wonderful message to put onto the world.

Peter:

And I was thinking, like, hey, I'd like to thank.

Peter:

Let's bring her back.

Peter:

And the audience has grown.

Peter:

The show's grown a little bit since then as well, so hopefully more and more people could see this conversation and the work that you're doing.

Peter:

So I appreciate you coming back, my dear.

:

Thank you.

Peter:

So I'm going to ask you, I wanted to dive in because if you can tell everybody a little bit about yourself, just like a quick little one or two minute explanation of who you are and what kind of work you do.

:

Well, my name is Louise K.

:

I'm originally from the northwest of the United Kingdom, and I do work which I call embodied awareness.

:

And embodied awareness is a practice that I do with people, which is an invitation to recognize the truth of who they are beyond the conceptual self.

:

And the awareness side of it is.

:

It's a word I use which is synonymous for consciousness.

:

Many people refer to this as consciousness, the knowing that we are pure consciousness.

:

And that's the deepest truth of who we are.

:

The part that was never born, it will never die.

:

It's beyond the personality, it's beyond the form.

:

And I work with people to support them, not to understand this mentally, but to directly recognize through experience so they have direct knowing of their true self.

:

And the embodied aspect of it is the practice to consciously include the experience of our body as energy.

:

And that brings about a lot of healing, deep healing and transformation on the level of form, on the level of personality, and how we express ourselves in the world.

:

Because it allows for the combination of these two allows for the falling away of unconscious patterns and conditionings that everybody took on from an early age.

:

And when they fall away, we are free to express ourselves in the world in alignment with higher consciousness, in alignment with the greatest truth.

Peter:

That's beautiful.

Peter:

Well, I wanted to.

Ryan:

So I found one thing that I picked up on right away was her equating awareness and consciousness.

Ryan:

And I thought that was an interesting take on that.

Ryan:

I'm not sure exactly how I feel about that.

Ryan:

I kind of feel like awareness has a nuance to it that's different than consciousness.

Host:

Okay, so I have.

Host:

I have a lot to say.

Ryan:

This is the purpose.

Host:

So the first thing is the teaser bit about this kind of predestination.

Host:

I noticed an immediate resistance.

Host:

And then I thought about, it's like, oh, okay.

Host:

That's like, okay.

Host:

There's some triggering, there's some conditioning that is definitely reacting to the way that she's expressing this thing.

Ryan:

Right.

Host:

But then as I listened to it, I thought, okay, this is really not out of alignment with anything that I actually agree with or that we've actually discussed this kind of thing.

Host:

When she talked about embodied awareness, I immediately thought, oh, well, that's mindfulness meditation.

Host:

I mean, that's what I'm learning to teach.

Host:

And that's kind of the way we talk about it.

Host:

And so I recognize everything that she's saying, and I'm kind of.

Host:

I find myself translating in my head everything that she's saying into my own familiar framework.

Host:

I don't think any of it sounds at all foreign or alien to me.

Host:

It's the way.

Host:

Yeah, it's just coming from kind of a different voice, which also just totally side comment.

Host:

I thought it was interesting that she's from the UK, but it's like, are we ever gonna find out where her accent's from?

Host:

How did you get this accent in the UK?

Host:

I think she's been living somewhere else.

Host:

Obviously, but especially the comment about embodiment being kind of leading to trauma work.

Host:

I think she mentioned trauma and healing.

Host:

She mentioned healing.

Host:

And that's something that I definitely work with a lot.

Host:

I mean, I've gone through a lot of that.

Host:

It's not something that I teach yet.

Host:

So I'm very interested in.

Host:

Like, I'm primed.

Host:

I'm primed.

Host:

But it was interesting.

Host:

It's interesting how, in a way, difficult it is because of.

Host:

It's just recognized different language around the same thing, I think.

Ryan:

Yes.

Host:

Which is very much, again, a major topic that we talk about.

Host:

Right.

Host:

And I think the other thing is being uncomfortable with the reaction format because our custom in the way we do this is to listen very carefully what the other person saying.

Host:

Just take down notes, interrupt.

Ryan:

Right.

Host:

And now I'm.

Host:

I'm listening to her and I'm thinking things.

Host:

I'm like, oh, this is a video we.

Host:

I should be pausing it and then commenting on it.

Ryan:

Right.

Host:

So I guess this is just a mechanical question.

Host:

It's like, how do I.

Host:

How do we pause?

Host:

Like, can I pause?

Host:

Can I, you know, just tell you.

Ryan:

Just point to me and I'll pause it.

Host:

Okay.

Ryan:

And then we can have a conversation.

Host:

Okay.

Ryan:

I mean, if we don't have something to talk about, then we'll just let it run.

Ryan:

But if something comes up and if we pause it frequently, that's fine, too.

Host:

I mean, what's interesting to me in doing this for the first time is that obviously, if I think the goal is to capture our thoughts at the time that she's saying a thing.

Host:

And of course, if I was listening to this video myself, I would just have all these reactions and they go by.

Host:

And then at the end of the video, I'd kind of think to myself, well, what did I think about that?

Host:

And, you know, if something I thought at the beginning was changed by something that she said later on, I might not remember it.

Ryan:

Right.

Host:

So it's weird.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Host:

I mean, it feels it's a different format.

Host:

Interesting.

Host:

Yeah.

Ryan:

Yeah, it was interesting, though.

Ryan:

One thing I didn't want to mention was you saying you were basically taking the air, quote, teaching, if you will, and translating it into the language that you're familiar with.

Ryan:

And this, to me, points very strongly, number one, to our original thesis of having a core teaching that is, that is being described or attempted to be described through a variety of pointers, which is the other term that we use frequently.

Ryan:

And, you know, I'll talk about translation in another episode soon.

Ryan:

But that, to me, is the key is not so much listening to the words verbatim, but discerning that underlying nugget of wisdom that seems to be consistent and then translating it into something that you're familiar with, which to me echoes very strongly with the way, because my process has been very organic.

Ryan:

These are, this is what I experienced frequently, which is hearing something that's out of context or of what I would normally listen to, or what is generally considered my nominal faith structure, I guess, which would be Judeo christian kind of teaching or perspective, and hearing these, be it eastern philosophies or even new agey type philosophies.

Ryan:

And when I'm listening to them, I'm hearing those nuggets of wisdom, even though they're using language that might be a bit foreign to what I'm accustomed to, still hearing that nuance.

Ryan:

And I think that's one of the key elements that I'm hoping that we can help provide to an audience, is the importance of being open and listening to a variety of pointers and being able to discern through, translate, essentially, yes.

Host:

And so I'd like to comment about kind of this idea of receiving teachings that are unfamiliar and I being mindful or attentive to resistance and seeing it for what it is.

Host:

Where I think often we're taught, we're like, trust your gut.

Host:

Right?

Host:

I'm thinking, meaning that your gut is your intuition coming from, hopefully, your greater wisdom.

Host:

But I think too often your gut is conditioned reactioning.

Host:

That's intervening between your heart wisdom and the thing that you're taking in.

Host:

And so that's why I wanted to report out that I was having that experience and that, you know, I want to discern between having a conditioned reaction that's resistant versus recognizing that something that's being purported as a true teaching has missed the mark with that, the intuition that says, oh, that's not, that doesn't sit with me, you know, which doesn't necessarily mean it's untrue.

Host:

It means that it's not a finger that I'm following, it's not a pointer for me.

Host:

And this touches on this idea that I really want to expand later, but that's for the next bit.

Host:

So let's play the video.

Peter:

Let's dive in then, with our first question is, how can we stop feeding our fear based thoughts?

:

It's very powerful, actually, to break this cycle, because if you're living identified with fear based thoughts, basically those patterns run your whole existence and it keeps you trapped.

:

You're not able to know a deeper peace that's here, that's available, that's accessible to everyone, and you become a prisoner to your own mind.

:

So if someone, first of all, recognizes I'm a prisoner in this way, I'm experiencing these fear based thoughts, and they're running the program.

:

They're keeping me locked in that fear and not giving me space to follow my highest excitement, to express myself in my most authentic way.

:

First of all, acknowledging it already brings more consciousness to the fact that it's happening.

:

And once it's acknowledged, it's actually not unconscious anymore because it's seen.

:

And then we can investigate, well, what is seeing this phenomena, what's aware of it.

:

Now, this investigation is an invitation to open to the deeper essence of who you are, to transcend the thought patterns and open to higher consciousness.

:

And all that's required is simply to become aware of the thought.

:

And every time a thought appears to see it, to acknowledge that it's there and to recognize that's a thought born from the egoic construct.

:

It's actually not a thought that's aligned with the truth of who I am.

Ryan:

That was something that I found really interesting.

Ryan:

There was a couple of things in there, and I saw you nodding your head and making some funny faces as well.

Ryan:

So we'll see what you say.

Ryan:

But the idea that, I mean, it sounds like what she's saying is, like, all thought is born out of that egoic conditioned mind.

Ryan:

And while we.

Ryan:

So I had this, I thought I had taken note of it somewhere.

Ryan:

There seems to be during this process of awakening or seeking or growth in spirituality, however you want to describe it, there seems to be this nest, a.

Ryan:

I guess it's paradox, but a conflicting necessity to use intellect, which is interesting.

Ryan:

Cause this is where we started the show, wanting to kind of address these things from an intellectual point of view.

Ryan:

And in so doing, you recognize that intellect can only get you so far, and it will not and may even prevent you from the experience of the thing you're looking for and trying to understand.

Ryan:

And however, the egoic mind, the conditioned mind, is still a function of the experience here that we're trying to transcend.

Ryan:

So until that egoic mind is completely gone, there's like, this necessity to teach the egoic mind.

Ryan:

Do you understand what I'm saying?

Ryan:

Like, to.

Ryan:

You need to use your intellect to transcend the egoic mind.

Ryan:

Even though it's from the egoic mind.

Host:

Yeah, I mean, conventional reality, as false as it is, is the means that we have available to us to relate to our consciousness and so the process of getting to pure consciousness or higher awareness, or whatever you want to call it, is caught up in the fact that we are incarnated in these physical brains and bodies.

Host:

It's where we find ourselves.

Host:

It's not what we are.

Ryan:

Right.

Host:

But because it's where it finds ourselves.

Host:

It's where we find ourselves.

Host:

We are constrained to these conditions until we move, until the conditions change.

Ryan:

Right.

Host:

So I realized that I have to take notes the way I do when I'm listening to you.

Host:

So there was something that the, I think what she started with that I was nodding at was that.

Host:

So the question is, how do we get beyond our fear based, fear based thoughts?

Host:

Specifically fear based thoughts and her observation as well.

Host:

If you're on a seeking path and you know that your thoughts are, your fear based thoughts are a problem, then you recognize them.

Host:

And she'd say, you know, and that's a key teaching right there, that now that you're talking about them, you've stepped out of them.

Ryan:

Right.

Host:

And that's, you know, something that she's stated very clearly.

Ryan:

That's kind of the first step, you would think.

Ryan:

Right, right.

Host:

I mean, it's something that we've talked about many times.

Host:

It's a very basic teaching.

Host:

What I was noticing listening to her, though, again, is the language.

Host:

And there's a lot I'm like, I'm really noticing how caught up I'm in various aspects of listening to her speak.

Host:

So it's her specific voice and accent.

Host:

And I just find myself continually trying to figure this out.

Host:

Like, I'm hearing, I definitely am hearing the UK in there as well now, which is not relevant to our discussion.

Host:

But it's definitely, that's funny.

Host:

Part of my experience.

Ryan:

That's an experience.

Host:

It's part of my experience.

Host:

And then the other thing was she talked about aligning to higher consciousness.

Host:

And I think my resistance is in the kind of the new agey flavor of it.

Host:

And we've talked about this before.

Host:

So for some reason, and, well, for some reason, I mean, the fact is that I've been listening to Tara Brock, Brockman and Tara Brock and Jack Kornfeld for decades.

Host:

Like, not straight, but I was exposed to them decades ago.

Host:

And so I'm much more kind of prepped to that language.

Host:

And so, you know, now when I hear Tara say, well, look at your deepest wisdom, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's not at all strange.

Host:

But when someone jumps to, you know, talk to your highest consciousness, I recognize it immediately.

Host:

But I guess what I'm saying is, from a pedagogical perspective, I, like, I balk because I'm like, oh, that's gonna alienate a lot of people.

Host:

Which I think goes to, though, the fact that this is not a general interest podcast.

Ryan:

Mm hmm.

Ryan:

Right, correct.

Host:

And so.

Host:

And she's not.

Host:

It's like, what?

Host:

Oh, what's his name?

Host:

Adyavanti?

Host:

Is that his name?

Ryan:

Adyashanti.

Host:

Adyashanti.

Host:

Boy, I'm terrible names said, you know, people who come to me as a teacher know what they're getting, right?

Host:

And so I think that's the thing, is that I don't know what I'm getting.

Host:

Like, this is such a cold, you know, a cold entry to hearing her that probably listeners of this podcast named next level soul.

Host:

Next level soul, which, right there, I mean, that kind of sets the tone already.

Host:

So I should have.

Host:

I should have been more, like, primed.

Host:

So it's just an interesting experience.

Host:

I'm really, really surprised at how much I see my conditioning coming up listening to this.

Host:

It's very interesting exercise in doing a reaction video, because, I mean, this is the stuff we talk about all the time.

Host:

We spend so many hours talking about these things, and then hear someone else say it, I'm like, oh, you know, but, you know, when.

Host:

When we've talked about it, it's basically pre digested.

Ryan:

Right, right.

Host:

We're doing some reading, or we, you know, we're just doing our own thing outside, and then we're bringing stuff here, and it's like, oh, I want to tell you about this thing I heard, and you're not hearing it from the person.

Host:

You're hearing my translation of it talking to you in a way that I know how you need to hear things.

Host:

Like, I know what's comfortable, you know, and if it's not.

Host:

If I know it's not comfortable, you might not like the way it said.

Host:

And so it's an interesting experience, and I think.

Host:

I think it's something that I really want to point out, because if someone is.

Host:

Well, I have to say it's.

Host:

I must have experienced many, this many times in my past.

Host:

It's just I'm in a place now where I don't remember it.

Ryan:

Yep.

Host:

And I'm thinking about, you know, our listeners and our original demographic of people who are seeking, but they're put off by things.

Host:

And now I'm like, oh, golly.

Host:

Yeah.

Host:

It's easy to be put off by things.

Host:

Which returns to our original thesis.

Host:

Right.

Host:

Which was.

Host:

Yeah, people are being unnecessarily.

Host:

Put off by major teachings that would really do them a lot of good.

Host:

They're actually looking for these things, and they're turning away because of the.

Host:

Because of the nature of the finger, which is okay.

Host:

It's okay as long as you understand.

Host:

Like, I guess what I'm saying is okay.

Host:

I can immediately tell that her style is not for everyone, but she's pointing correctly.

Ryan:

Mm hmm.

Host:

That's.

Host:

I guess that's what I'm saying.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Host:

And that.

Host:

I don't know.

Host:

Now they say that I'm like, oh, well, who am I to tell people like, oh, that teacher's.

Host:

That teacher's partying correctly, and that teacher's not.

Ryan:

Well, you recognize the underlying message.

Host:

I guess what I'm saying is, yeah, the style I don't find immediately appealing.

Host:

I actually am seeing a lot of resistance to it, but I'm like, oh, yeah, this is completely true, which is weird.

Host:

And I guess, what's my point?

Host:

For the listener, it's, I guess, don't be upset at something maybe being untrue because it's not packaged the way you want it.

Host:

And I think that is definitely the way I used to be.

Host:

I definitely felt affronted by a lot of new age language and even Adyashati.

Host:

Actually, when I first came across him in some way, I was put off.

Host:

And then subsequently, I heard him give another talk, which we talked about already, and I really understood where he was coming from, and I could see very clearly, like, oh, okay, this guy is a great teacher.

Host:

It's just, he's not my teacher.

Ryan:

Right.

Host:

You know?

Host:

So I guess that's the whole point.

Ryan:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ryan:

There's many pointers, and not every pointer is going to be right for everybody.

Host:

All right, let's.

Host:

Let's continue.

:

It's not me.

:

And this allows you not to take the thought personally, not to identify with it, to see it as an appearance.

:

And I'm the aware witness which perceives that thought.

:

Now, it's not personal to me anymore.

:

I'm impersonal, and I'm seeing it just like if you're outside and you experience a bird flying through the sky, this bird comes, and then it goes.

:

It's clear to us the bird is not mine.

:

It's an appearance that I'm witnessing.

:

I'm perceiving it.

:

So you start to relate to these fear based thoughts in the same way.

:

Many times, the fear based thoughts are accompanied by unpleasant contractions in the body because the body has been practicing listening to those thoughts, and the thoughts condition the body.

:

The body doesn't know if the thought is real or not.

:

It just responds to the vibration of the thought, the frequency of the thought.

:

So if the thought is about fear, something bad is going to happen to me, or what if this happens?

:

The body will contract to prepare you for that.

Ryan:

Even if this is actually something that came up to me recently that is different specifically than what she's saying, but it kind of segues off of it.

Ryan:

So I went to work on Wednesday, and it was the first time I had been in traffic in a year, year and a half, which I'm very grateful for.

Ryan:

The drive was fine.

Ryan:

It was after I had watched this.

Ryan:

And so one thing I've recognized and discussed previously here is how sometimes I can be experiencing peace and recognizing biological symptoms or reactions to something.

Ryan:

And I think, in part, that's what she's talking about, is the biological response to a thought.

Ryan:

However, that is a little bit nuanced in that when I'm experiencing peace, not thinking.

Ryan:

So what is my body reacting to?

Ryan:

And what I'm gonna say, I think, points to it, and I haven't done enough reflection to truly understand this.

Ryan:

But the thing that came up to me was the unthought thought I recognized when I was driving the other day.

Ryan:

Sometimes I had a thought, and I was reacting.

Ryan:

But at one point, when I was trying to be mindful of my thinking, there was not a thought, and my body reacted, and there was nothing going on.

Ryan:

It wasn't like, you know, a reactionary thing.

Host:

Oh, it wasn't a driver doing something.

Ryan:

No.

Ryan:

It was just things were fine.

Ryan:

Then I had a body of biological reaction, and then there was a thought about it, which I thought was an interesting progression, which seemed to be, at least in some ways, conflicting with the idea that we have a thought, and then there's a biological reaction.

Ryan:

But it was backwards to me.

Ryan:

And the thing that I thought of was the unthought thought.

Ryan:

That is the impetus for bodily reaction, for a thought.

Ryan:

And I don't know what it is, but that that reminded me of that experience.

Host:

I mean, that what you're describing is just the unconscious.

Host:

I mean, that the unconscious or conditioning.

Host:

Or there was another term that just came up and someone said, what is that?

Host:

And I said, oh, that just means conditioning or shadow self.

Host:

That, yeah, it's the unthought thought.

Host:

It's the thought that you can't see as a thought because it's subdivid subconscious.

Host:

It's below your level.

Host:

And now, now we're using conscious and psychological term, not in terms of capital c, consciousness or awareness, but it is below your awareness.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Host:

It's below your intellectual awareness.

Host:

And so you don't.

Host:

You don't perceive it.

Host:

And so it seems as if your body is just doing a thing.

Ryan:

Right.

Host:

Your body is just having a reaction to nothing.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Host:

When actually it's having a reaction to something that you can't openly perceive in your awareness because it's subconscious.

Ryan:

And then there was a bodily.

Ryan:

That was another interesting thing that I found, although I guess it's not that original, but that there was.

Ryan:

That the thoughts, the conscious thought was driven by a bodily emotion or experience, and then, you know, the thoughts start to flow.

Ryan:

So I guess, in part, what I pick up here, or would offer to a listener, is importance of recognizing the bodily sensations that are precursors to the thought as a means to try and intervene before the thought kind of is off to the races and starts to control the awareness.

Host:

Yeah.

Host:

So there are a couple things that she said that I was going to pause for if you hadn't.

Host:

So the first thing is coming off of our pause.

Host:

She.

Host:

I saw that she was teaching awareness.

Host:

Now I'm losing my train of thought.

Host:

Do we know the timestamp where you restart and where you restarted her?

:

To us, the bird is not mine.

:

It's a higher consciousness.

:

And all that's required is simply to become aware of the thought.

:

And every time a thought appears to see it, to acknowledge that it's there and to recognize that's a thought born from the egoic construct.

:

It's actually not a thought that's aligned with the truth of who I am.

:

It's not me.

Host:

Okay, so this is stuff that we've very specifically talked about, right?

Host:

Non identification and the recognition of what is aware of the thought.

Ryan:

Yes.

Host:

Right.

Host:

And so awareness in that sense, what she says a little bit later, a few seconds later, is she uses.

Host:

I think she uses the words vibration and frequency regarding the thought.

Host:

Like, the thought has a quality to it.

Host:

And.

Host:

And again, it's that new age terminology.

Host:

And now I'm familiar enough with other things that I can understand what.

Host:

What they're talking about, because in.

Host:

In my past, and.

Host:

And it still is my resistance to this language.

Host:

Right.

Host:

These are words that have actual meanings, and so how are you applying them to the thought?

Host:

It's nonsensical, and I balk at that.

Host:

And there's this.

Host:

Not just the skeptic, the conditioned skeptic, but also the conditioned, the trained critical thinker, not.

Host:

Which is distinct from the critic.

Host:

Okay.

Host:

But the, you know, trained in critical thinking, you have to question, what are you trying to say?

Host:

What are you talking about?

Host:

Why are you using the word that you're using?

Host:

And again, it's being open to it.

Host:

I think I was not open to this, or I couldn't be open to this if I didn't have another way of hearing this language.

Host:

And I'm wondering what it is like for someone who doesn't have my buddhist framework to work in and, let's say, doesn't have a critical thinking framework to work in, then is this all much more accessible to them?

Host:

You know, because for me, what came first was a critical thinking framework, which created a barrier to this.

Host:

And then establishing the buddhist framework for myself gave me access to this.

Host:

And I can say, oh, she's talking about feeling tone.

Host:

In buddhist, traditional buddhist terminology, we talk about the feeling tone of different experiences, including thoughts as being pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral.

Host:

And that seems to be precisely what she means by frequency.

Host:

But even saying this word right now, I feel so much resistance because there is no frequency.

Host:

Like, what is it?

Host:

What is it that you are measuring?

Host:

The frequency.

Host:

I mean, frequency is a rate.

Host:

It's an occurrence of a thing over time.

Host:

And if there's not a thing that you're measuring over time, then there is no frequency.

Host:

And that's what I'm really.

Host:

And I can see my, like my critical thinkers digging in its heels here.

Host:

It's like, that's what it is.

Host:

There is no other meaning of frequency.

Host:

There is no other meaning of vibration than that it is a wave in a medium.

Host:

If you do not have a medium and you do not have a wave, then you're not talking about vibration.

Host:

I cannot conceive of any other meaning.

Ryan:

They are talking about that, though they aren't necessarily.

Ryan:

I will acknowledge and concede that they are not necessarily actively measuring it, but what they are speaking of, they are speaking of as a frequency and a vibration in a medium.

Ryan:

And they are asserting that thoughts have vibrational qualities within the medium of the cosmos, the fabric of consciousness.

Host:

So.

Host:

And as I was making that argument, I was seeing exactly what you're saying, because now I have the experience that says, oh, yeah, they're talking about the ripple effects of this thing, which is so funny, because I just did a class last Monday where I was talking about ripples.

Host:

And the problem is, though, without explaining that, I've never heard someone using new age language explain or be inclined to explain what they meant.

Host:

It's just like, oh, we.

Host:

Well, of course you know what this is.

Host:

And I think that's disingenuous because I think a lot of people don't know what they mean by the frequency of their experience.

Host:

And it has to do.

Host:

Yeah, I guess the problem that I have is that as far as I can tell, the history of this kind of language is taking the kind of using mystical language without any framework.

Host:

And golly, I'm really conflicted about that because it's necessary to have direct experience.

Host:

I mean, mysticism is about direct experience.

Host:

This is what we are like.

Host:

We value.

Host:

It's what we're seeking and finding and exploring.

Host:

We're exploring these direct experiences of consciousness and awareness and how we can express them in words.

Host:

And this is the key thing.

Host:

This is, again, it's going to tie to this other topic that we want to talk about later.

Host:

It's the distinction between talking about your experience or an experience and talking about an idea.

Host:

If you're talking about.

Host:

I'm kind of falling into now.

Host:

I am trying to work.

Host:

This is where we always get stuck.

Host:

This is where I always get stuck because I'm sinking in.

Host:

I'm trying to look at my own experience, my own awareness, my own consciousness, and then talk about it and the words get stuck.

Host:

But what I'm saying is, because I want to avoid.

Host:

I immediately found myself not wanting to say my or your, because that's the nature of that experience.

Host:

But I have to say your.

Host:

Because if you.

Host:

You are talking about this thing and it is your direct experience, then it's true.

Host:

God, I almost want to say, because then I know.

Host:

Like, I can know, Jesus, this sounds.

Host:

This sounds conceited, it sounds arrogant, but it's kind of what I'm experiencing right now, that if you're talking about your own experience, if you are working within our framework of conventional reality and you are struggling with our limitations of language and you are expressing your direct experience.

Host:

I know that.

Ryan:

Right.

Host:

And if you are talking about an idea, in other words, it's not something that's within your direct experience.

Host:

It's someone else's experience, and you're talking about it as a vibration.

Ryan:

Right.

Host:

I know that.

Host:

And that's what's.

Host:

That's the discernment that I find there's a discernment there.

Host:

In other words, there's a difference between those two things.

Host:

And many people act as if or assert that there isn't.

Host:

Okay, I'm talking about this vibration because that's the way the world is.

Ryan:

Sure.

Host:

Yeah, but you haven't experienced that.

Host:

But it's the way the world is, you know, everybody should know this is true.

Host:

It's like, it is true if you've experienced it.

Host:

And if it's not, if you haven't experienced it, then you're just going deeper into conditioning and attaching to these words and you're not pointing to anything.

Ryan:

Yeah, that makes sense.

Ryan:

And again, I think it.

Ryan:

It kind of relates to this interesting paradox that ideas.

Ryan:

Ideas are the intellectual piece of it that I was saying is sort of this necessary aspect of the best way I can think of it or articulate it is to trick the egoic mind.

Ryan:

Like, the most common experience is that the egoic mind completely co ops the entire experience.

Ryan:

And at some point, in incarnation, the awareness or consciousness.

Ryan:

See, this is where I get stuck.

Ryan:

And this is kind of what she was saying.

Ryan:

And this is where I was finding a little challenge, was, at some point, the ego has to think that there's something else.

Ryan:

The ego has to be convinced to let go of that control.

Ryan:

The awareness can't start to take over the helm until there's that breakthrough of the ego.

Ryan:

And so the idea, I agree, people cling to that idea, and that's the ego clinging to that idea.

Ryan:

And yet the idea is, it seems to be an important impetus to being able to break out of ego, which is paradoxical in a way, because you are having to embrace egoic concepts in order to break out of ego, in order to eventually, hopefully, as long as you're not too connected to the specifics of the idea, have a mystical experience.

Host:

So I miss something with embracing egoic.

Ryan:

Concepts that the idea, like you, at some point, the embracing the idea and the idea is any go at concept, it is a function of the ego.

Host:

In other words, you're hearing the teaching.

Ryan:

Yes.

Host:

And, and you have to accept the teaching the ego at some point.

Host:

Yeah.

Host:

Right, right.

Host:

Um.

Host:

Yeah, I mean, I was so I was.

Host:

I was just observing my.

Host:

My manner of speaking and kind of the energy and the frustration that I was bringing to it.

Host:

And, and I think that, you know, it might raise a question of.

Host:

Oh, well, because I.

Host:

I claimed that I was coming from a place of awareness.

Ryan:

Cause you were sinking in at some.

Host:

Point in that conversation.

Host:

I was.

Host:

And yet I still had this kind of heat to it.

Host:

And I think there's definitely a motivation to helping people connect.

Host:

Helping people connect is the motivation.

Host:

And the concern is seeing barriers to connection and seeing people throw up barriers.

Host:

And that's the frustration is wanting to point out the difference between the two things.

Host:

And there's.

Host:

And so there's an egoic frustration there.

Host:

And I think that's because, as I was saying before, you know, we're trying to connect people, but we're constrained to our conventional reality.

Host:

Like, I have to talk in order to connect you, which draws you back into.

Host:

Has a potential to draw you into ego.

Host:

Oh, my God.

Host:

I really.

Host:

Okay, we're never gonna get through this video.

Ryan:

Probably not.

Ryan:

Can you just turn your mic a little bit towards.

Host:

Yeah, yeah.

Host:

Okay.

Ryan:

Just so that it goes in a little bit.

Ryan:

My thought was, I'll just try.

Ryan:

And he does a good job marking it.

Ryan:

I think I'll just move to the next question.

Ryan:

And it's okay if we don't get through it.

:

You can start with, just wait a second.

:

I'm aware of the breath, and then already you're more present in the moment.

:

You feel your body breathing and you notice, well, actually, look.

:

Oh, that's interesting.

:

The body's breathing by itself.

:

I'm not doing it.

:

And now I'm aware of it.

:

I'm witnessing it.

:

Okay, and now what else is the body doing?

:

And then you start to feel the body as a life sensations.

:

And when you're fully present in the body, you can feel where the contractions are held.

:

And you might start to notice, oh, there's like, it's tightness in my throat or there's a heaviness in my chest.

:

And often the initial, I'm aware of your energies.

:

So when you start to practice, very gently bringing your attention into the body and just checking in, like, you can start with, am I aware of the breath?

:

And then already you're more present in the moment.

Ryan:

It's all just about your body breathing, body's reaction.

:

And you notice, you think it's not.

:

That's interesting.

:

The body's breathing by itself.

Peter:

How do you break?

Peter:

Because, I mean, if we've conditioned ourselves, and I think most of us have conditioned ourselves with these negative and fear based thoughts as a general statement, we're always thinking about, oh, my God, what's going to happen?

Peter:

Oh, my God, is the bill going to be paid?

Peter:

Oh, my God, where am I going to get some money?

Peter:

Oh, my God.

Peter:

Does she love me or does he love me?

Peter:

Oh, my God, am I going to get this job?

Peter:

There's always this next.

Host:

Because how do you.

Host:

I actually think that's really bad language that he just used, that we condition ourselves.

Host:

I mean, we.

Host:

It's not that we never condition ourselves, but what he's talking about is not something that is our fault that we've chosen to do for ourselves.

Ryan:

Right.

Host:

And so I just wanted to like, oh, my God, that was terrible.

Ryan:

But from what he means, more culturally, we given.

Host:

Yeah, yeah.

Host:

But anyway, from what I heard of her teaching, though, I'm like, oh, I really like her.

Ryan:

Yeah, no, she actually, well, previously when we had backed up when she was talking about investigation and stuff.

Ryan:

I see.

Ryan:

I thought of rain.

Ryan:

I thought you might pick up on that or, or say something about that.

Ryan:

As far as I also thought about rain.

Host:

Yeah, yeah.

Ryan:

And then she does talk quite.

Ryan:

I mean, I listened to the whole thing.

Ryan:

It.

Ryan:

There's a lot of it that touches on, you know, the practices that you're familiar with.

Ryan:

And she doesn't necessarily claim to own those kinds of things, but in her work, she does kind of use the same kind of practices.

Host:

Yeah.

Host:

And I would say again, you know, this is my baggage about.

Host:

Well, you know, I mean, like wanting to know the sources.

Host:

Right.

Host:

That's my own inclination.

Host:

There's nothing wrong with just doing the teaching, not saying this is where I learned it.

Host:

It's like.

Host:

And so, you know, I think everything I've heard is on track.

Ryan:

Right.

Host:

So I'm only talking about my resistance from my condition state, which is good.

Ryan:

Because this is a reaction video.

Host:

Yeah.

Ryan:

So we're getting your reaction because, I.

Peter:

Mean, if we've conditioned ourselves, and I think most of us have conditioned ourselves with these negative and fear based thoughts, that's individual statement.

Peter:

We're always thinking about, oh, my God, what's going to happen?

Peter:

Oh my God, is the bill going to be paid?

Peter:

Oh my God, where am I going to get some money?

Peter:

Oh my God.

Peter:

Does she love me or does he love me?

Peter:

Oh my God, am I going to get this job?

Peter:

There's always this.

Peter:

It's just kind of, at least in the west, really kind of hardwired in us.

Peter:

What technique.

Ryan:

That was an interesting, we brought this up too, is culture of the west.

Ryan:

And the perspective we're often speaking from is a western cultural perspective.

Ryan:

And maybe some of these things are less prominent in other cultures.

Ryan:

I don't know.

Ryan:

I mean, I'm sure.

Host:

Yeah.

Host:

But I think what he's basically talking about is brain function.

Host:

He's not talking about cultural stuff.

Peter:

Sure.

Host:

I mean, except for the specific words he's using, like money.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Host:

I mean, even that.

Ryan:

But it's like, would a more traditionally buddhist community that has a monastery and that the community is involved and maybe these by the wayside now, I don't know.

Ryan:

But wouldn't, would the ideas of that are being taught not the conditioned stuff, but the meditative pieces, the awareness pieces, be more prevalent in the culture?

Ryan:

And would that then potentially reduce some of this other egoic stuff?

Ryan:

I don't know.

Ryan:

I guess that's what I mean when I say in the west, because our western culture and media is.

Ryan:

Is very geared toward fear.

Host:

Well, I think the difference would be in receptivity to the teacher, not in any difference in the.

Host:

In the way of suffering.

Ryan:

Sure.

Host:

Like that.

Host:

That's.

Host:

That's the whole thing.

Host:

Like, if.

Host:

If the east.

Host:

If the buddhist culture didn't have this, uh, orientation to self, there would be no need, like, you know, he wouldn't be teaching nonsense.

Ryan:

That's a good.

Host:

So, yeah.

Host:

Okay.

Peter:

Can you give in, helping us literally break from that programming?

Peter:

I know you talked a little bit about it, but is there anything specific, anything else that you could do specifically?

Peter:

Because I think it's something that people really, really have a problem with.

:

And those thoughts, like the examples you gave, really classic, common examples.

:

It's like, because they've been practiced for so long, and the attention is focused on them.

:

When you focus your attention on them, what happens is you feed them.

:

You give them food with your attention, and they gobble up that food, and they get bigger and stronger, and they produce more thoughts that are similar.

Ryan:

I saw you nod, but there is the teaching by daughters counselor, therapist had mentioned, and I don't know if she took this from somewhere else, but she called it feeding the dragon.

Ryan:

And when my daughter was struggling with the anxiety that was part of the teaching was not to feed the dragon.

Ryan:

And as you.

Ryan:

And this is exactly what she's talking about, is when we continue to reinforce the negative thoughts, so to speak, but the more conditioned responses, we're going to experience them more.

Ryan:

And likewise, if we practice putting our attention on more awareness and detachment from those things, that we will then experience.

Host:

More peace and, yeah, I mean, I think.

Host:

And to her point, so I agree with what you're saying.

Host:

I recognize that teaching, and I'm thinking of an anxiety talk that I saw that talked about kind of like anxiety.

Host:

The role anxiety plays.

Host:

Like, the role anxiety takes on in wanting to be recognized or wanting to be the problem.

Host:

And it's kind of that self feeding thing, which in that context, you know, he's right.

Host:

That we do individually reinforce our condition, but we're not the source of the.

Host:

That's.

Host:

That was the problem that I had with the way he was saying.

Host:

And she's addressing it because she's answering the question of, what can you do?

Host:

That, yes, you can.

Host:

You can work to stop feeding, right?

Host:

I mean, you're both using this.

Host:

You both, you're both using the feeding.

Ryan:

Term, which that nourishment metaphor, I think is accessible, is a very accessible way to talk about it.

:

So you have to cut off the fruit supply.

:

Now, how do you cut off the food supply?

:

You have to focus your attention on something else.

:

So where do you focus your attention?

:

You have to bring your attention back.

:

You have to draw it back into pure being.

:

What that means is it's the most effortless state of non doing.

:

It means that you simply be, and you can only do this in the present moment.

:

You be the perceiver of the moment.

:

And whenever a thought comes, you recognize that you are perceiving it.

:

And it comes and then it goes.

:

Now, you don't even give effort to try to stop the thoughts or try to change the thoughts.

:

Even that's too much effort.

:

You just stay abiding as pure consciousness, allowing perceiving to happen.

:

And as you do this, your presence power increases.

:

Your presence power starts to.

:

At some point, it gets stronger than the energetic pull of those thoughts.

:

The moment it tips past 50%.

:

And your presence power is you're anchored in the present moment.

:

It's lost its grip on you, and then it starts the starvation process.

:

It's not getting its fruit anymore.

:

You're not invested in it.

:

Give any interest in what those thoughts say.

:

You have to it.

:

Some people almost have an addiction to it, and you have to stop feeding it.

:

Don't even give it a crumb of your attention.

:

So a nice analogy that I often talk about is if you imagine, like, you're the sky and the clouds pass through the sky, and then you see a cloud come and it goes.

:

It's like, you, consciousness are the space in which these thoughts are appearing.

:

And you watch the thought come and go, and you don't take ownership of it.

:

You don't believe anything it says.

:

You remember that a fear based thought is coming from the ego.

:

The ego is not me.

:

I'm the witness of it.

:

I'm pure consciousness.

:

This is me.

Host:

So she's doing very direct.

Host:

She's doing very direct teaching.

Ryan:

Yes.

Host:

And, you know, the only issue is whether this is suited to you.

Host:

Right, right.

Host:

Because there are many, many people who need more guidance and framework.

Host:

You know, I mean, the instruction to, well, just go back into pure being.

Host:

Yes, that's precisely what the answer is.

Host:

But as an instruction, it's, you need more.

Ryan:

You know, she probably does in her work.

Host:

She is giving the guidance, but just to express it so directly.

Host:

And again, I mean, so obviously, she's familiar with this podcast and its audience, and she's spoken with this guy previously.

Host:

So I'm missing all this context.

Host:

And so I'm really reacting.

Host:

Again, from pedagogical perspective, I'm not reacting to the underlying content of anything she's saying.

Host:

It's like, oh, boy, she's real.

Host:

This is 100%.

Ryan:

How'd you feel about presence power?

Host:

Yeah, I knew what she was talking about, and I just questioned, like, oh, okay, well, this is not for everybody.

Host:

You know, there's missing context here.

Host:

Right, right.

Host:

But I'm very clear on what she's expressing.

Ryan:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ryan:

I'm gonna try and move to the next one.

Peter:

Beautifully said.

Peter:

Beautifully said.

Peter:

Now, another problem that I feel that we have is when things happen to us in life, negative things, a car accident, someone breaks up with you, you lose your job, these kind of monumental things.

Peter:

How can we surrender to the reality of what is, what is actually happening?

Peter:

Because so much, you know, you.

Peter:

The old.

Peter:

The old saying is you drop the milk and you spill the milk on the floor and you get upset and you're yelling at the milk.

Peter:

And why did this happen to me?

Peter:

You know, the milk doesn't care.

Peter:

It just is what.

Peter:

What it is, how you deal with it, is what you are in control of.

Peter:

Can you give us any guidance on how to do that?

Peter:

Because it is also a very difficult thing.

Peter:

Because sometimes it just feels good to yell at the milk, even as crazy as that sounds.

:

Yeah.

:

The moment that you understand that complaining about things that you can't control in life actually is not bringing you true pleasure, it might bring a distorted feel, good feeling.

:

But if you really look and, like, when you yell at the milk, for example, if you're really honest with yourself, like, am I actually enjoying this?

:

Or would I prefer right now to be experiencing love?

:

We always prefer love.

Ryan:

I think that that whole comment and segment points to what was said before about addiction to this and that.

Ryan:

Many people, most people, I don't know the quantification of it, but that they recognize the discontent, and there seems to be some pseudo relief by releasing that energy.

Ryan:

And then there's not a recognition that by engaging that behavior, it's reinforcing and feeding.

Ryan:

And then you end up in this cycle where you're constantly experiencing the frustration from the point of an egoic thought and then trying to, you know, release that.

Ryan:

That pain and suffering through complaining and verbalizing the frustrations, which only then kind of turns into this, this cycle.

Ryan:

And I recognize that in people, you know, that I've come in contact with people who tend to seem to find enjoyment in, like, gossip and things like that, where there is an apparent.

Ryan:

I mean, it seems very obvious from an outside perspective that that person seems to gain some level of enjoyment from it.

Ryan:

I don't think it's true enjoyment, but that there is some self soothing nature to engaging in that behavior.

Ryan:

And it does seem to be addictive and self reinforcing.

Host:

Yeah, I mean, I completely agree.

Host:

And I think that this is something that is.

Host:

I don't know if it's more western at this point.

Host:

It's something that's readily observable in our culture, and it's a sense of empowerment from combat.

Host:

From being combative.

Host:

Right.

Host:

I mean, you're not actually working against the thing that you're combating, but you're expressing a combative attitude, and that is valued by our culture.

Host:

And I mean, boy, if we go back to, you know, the split brain stuff, I mean, it's really, you can, you can relate it to that as being, because our culture has completely prioritized right, left brain manipulative qualities, that the idea that you are attempting to control has value.

Host:

Like, that's.

Host:

That's a western value already.

Host:

You know, you mentioned Judeo Christian and which brings us back to.

Host:

Oh, myth.

Host:

Come on.

Ryan:

Power of myth by Joseph Campbell.

Host:

Campbell.

Host:

Campbell.

Host:

Right.

Host:

Manipulation and control.

Host:

I mean, so I think it's essential fame, it's essential brain function.

Host:

But there's a western preference.

Host:

Right.

Host:

It's not that.

Host:

It's not that you wouldn't see it amongst all people like this desire to fight a thing, but I think that, you know, we certainly promote the idea of striving, combat, manipulation.

Host:

Control.

Host:

Yeah.

Host:

So just as a cultural bias.

Ryan:

Yeah, I agree.

Host:

And when I say manipulation, I don't mean in the sense of something underhanded.

Host:

I mean the sense, just the direct sense of control.

Host:

I'm manipulating this kind of, so that I can have a drink.

Ryan:

Well, I think that that would probably be a natural human instinct to try and grapple with control over things that seem to be out of our control, like to be grasping for that control and as a method or strategy to try and reduce the suffering.

Host:

I mean, you can see how we are literally evolved to that.

Host:

Like, some of our highest evolved function is in our hands, our manipulators.

Host:

It's not like our, you know, we can jump away for problems and that's how we're evolved to deal with them.

Host:

No, we're designed to manipulate.

Ryan:

That's a good point.

Ryan:

Yeah, that's a really good point.

Ryan:

And that's how we ended up where we are in the cycle of life and food chain.

Host:

And because it was.

Host:

Because it was adaptive, once we get rational about it, then we rationalize it and we say, this is the way things are.

Host:

Like, this is the way we should be because we evolved.

Host:

Like, you know, evolution is slow, right?

Host:

It was great for when we were evolving.

Host:

Doesn't nest, doesn't mean that's what we should be doing now.

Ryan:

Yeah.

Peter:

What is it?

:

Yes, it's unconsciousness.

:

It's identification in your life.

:

It's not by chance we'll do this last one.

:

And then orchestrated, specifically tailored exactly what you need in order.

:

Next question comes to fulfill your potential.

Peter:

In this lifetime when all these things happening, both the fear based thoughts and getting angry at reality, those both seem almost insane ideas.

Peter:

To yell at milk is insane.

Peter:

It's an insane concept.

Peter:

What is it about us?

Peter:

What is causing us to do this?

Peter:

Because I don't know if that's programming from society or from family or from religion or what.

Peter:

I don't know if that's it.

Peter:

But there's something that causes us to go down these roads.

Peter:

Can you, do you know what, can you identify what that is?

Peter:

Is it ego?

Peter:

What is it?

:

Yes, it's unconsciousness.

:

It's identification with the conceptual self.

:

So what's a conceptual self?

:

The conceptual self is a sense of me and me, who I am.

:

My worth for most people is tied in to ideas, beliefs and concepts.

:

And it starts with maybe, oh, my name.

:

This is who I am.

:

I'm Louise.

:

My nationality, my.

:

My memories, my experiences, my religion, the things I like, the things I don't like, the things I support, the things I'm against, the things I believe in, I don't believe in.

:

And all of this.

:

Yes, it's this conceptual construct and it's me.

:

And when there's total identification with that construct, there's unconsciousness.

:

It's just unconsciousness.

:

Like almost like a robotic zombie acting out.

:

There's no space there for the truth of the actual expression of that soul to emanate through.

:

It's pure conditioning, pure impulsive reactions.

Ryan:

Speaking of reactions, reaction video.

Ryan:

I'm pausing it mostly because I want us to be able to finish up so that the episode isn't too long.

Ryan:

Obviously, she touched quite directly on conditioning and what we've talked about many times.

Ryan:

The robotic nature of it is interesting as far as.

Ryan:

So I guess a question I have, and we're not going to have the answer for this.

Ryan:

There's talking about awareness and big C consciousness, which obviously, when she was saying unconsciousness, she was talking about un big C consciousness versus, you know, subconscious.

Ryan:

A question I have, and this is more of a philosophical, metaphysical seeking question.

Ryan:

That kind of sort of the question that embarked me on the journey many, many years ago.

Ryan:

You know, my question was, what's the purpose of this?

Ryan:

Or whatever there is an apparent acquiescence, or how do we get tied up in this egoic?

Ryan:

How did it take such control over the conscious mind?

Ryan:

Like, what she's saying, you know, is that egoic, unconscious, robotic, thought driven entity, so to speak, has completely choked out the awareness and experience of which we really are.

Ryan:

And not that it can be choked out permanently, but that there's now a divider, a wall of some sort that's blocking the present awareness of our true conscious being as an observer to this realm of thoughts and ideas and expression.

Ryan:

And what she was saying, as far as not having no space for that.

Ryan:

And I think that another question is, I guess this goes to integration, right?

Ryan:

That there's value and entertainment, not to trivialize it, and expressive growth that comes from enacting and engaging with the thought structure.

Ryan:

The egoic, it's like a tool, but the tool has completely co opted the entire experience.

Ryan:

And then we find ourselves in the darkness.

Ryan:

And I think that the integration is the important piece where we can re find a.

Ryan:

The awareness of who we are, so that we take the tool for what it is and can enjoy using it in a way to produce expressive value in this.

Ryan:

This reality, which I don't like using that word, because it's not reality, but in this interface.

Ryan:

And yet we've often been completely blocked off from it.

Host:

Yeah, I was going.

Host:

I was going the same direction that you were.

Host:

I was thinking Hawthorne and interface theory of consciousness that.

Host:

So one thing he doesn't address is why are we in the interface?

Host:

Like, how did we get from being pure consciousness to getting.

Host:

He doesn't, you know, I've never heard him mention it.

Host:

You know, he proposes that we are a bunch of consciousnesses who have evolved in this interface.

Host:

Like, we find ourselves in this interface.

Host:

He doesn't say why.

Host:

And that from a very low level of consciousness, we've evolved in the physicality of the interface to the level of consciousness we are now, where we can potentially recognize that, oh, we're in an interface.

Host:

Like, that's pretty interesting.

Host:

At the same time, we've become completely tied to an interface.

Host:

I was thinking in terms of evolution, you know, so operating from within the interface, thinking about our physicality and how our physicality evolved.

Host:

Right.

Host:

What I was thinking is, yeah, well, you know, now that this evolutionary strategy of manipulation and literally grasping.

Host:

Right.

Host:

Has gotten to the point where as a species, and this is not to neglect, you know, people without means, but as a species, our evolution is.

Host:

It has made us top.

Host:

So we don't have.

Host:

We're not starving because of inability to move to places with food or outrun predators, right.

Host:

We've evolved in a way that now, as a species, we can have the food that we want, and we don't have to worry about any predators, literally physically control every single predator that there is.

Host:

And I, you know, I think it's kind of the idea you.

Host:

We started with, with the institution creating its own survival.

Host:

It's like the physical body now has made itself.

Host:

You know, it's provided the vehicle for the consciousness to have enough opportunity to become aware of itself, but now it's not letting go.

Host:

Right?

Host:

It's like, well, I've got you this far.

Host:

You depend on the me.

Host:

And so the whole pattern of fight, flight, manipulation, aggrandizement, getting fat, you know, all the things that allowed us to evolve and increase our intellect and have the leisure to question or the ability.

Host:

The ability and the opportunity.

Host:

Right.

Host:

To question existence, to question awareness.

Host:

The thing that has allowed us to get that far is now the obstacle, right?

Host:

And, jeez, it just reminds me of, it reminds me of the buddhist teacher of, you know, you don't stay on the vehicle.

Host:

You don't stay in the raft.

Host:

Once you've gotten to the other side, you got to the other side.

Host:

So it's like, I mean, at least you don't.

Host:

Don't let it control you.

Host:

Like, oh, so this is another conversation I think we've had.

Host:

It's like, well, can we step away from the body?

Host:

Like, can we just say, yeah, we just don't need it anymore?

Host:

I mean, you know, what.

Host:

What I was, and I think that, oh, that you said, integration.

Host:

This is where I am, is that it's still very, very useful, right?

Host:

The physical interface, the physical body, depending on what level you want to look at it, is.

Host:

Is still very useful to our consciousness.

Host:

And I think that's what Hoffman was really pointing to, right?

Host:

It's like, oh, wait, if we learn to look at this the right way, we can create experiments which will enable us to manipulate the interface itself and not be dependent on the interface to nothing to be constrained by the interface, limiting our consciousness.

Host:

Okay, this is going to suck as a standalone episode because we're referencing all this, this material.

Host:

I just realized, well, you're just going.

Ryan:

To have to go and listen to the other episodes, aren't you?

Host:

We can put some references to.

Ryan:

Yeah, I will.

Ryan:

I will put links Donald Hoffman.

Ryan:

And actually, one thing that I'll try and put in the show notes as well was the Donald Hoffman Rupert Spiro interview because he actually, if I recall correctly, he queried Rupert.

Ryan:

He.

Ryan:

Donald Hoffman queried Rupert Spira specifically about why the creator creates or, and Rupert had mentioned that it was his belief or understanding that it's because it is.

Host:

In, it's the nature of it.

Ryan:

It is the nature of the creation consciousness to create.

Ryan:

And I think that that leads to kind of what she's touching on.

Ryan:

Louise K.

Ryan:

That we have a drive to express and to create expression.

Ryan:

And I think that that is intended or at least assumed to be expressing love in various forms, shining that light radiating to all of consciousness and its various forms, and that the body is a means to do that.

Ryan:

So, yeah, that's my thought on it.

Host:

Yeah, I mean, I like that you named love and creation.

Host:

And I mean, yeah, I mean, we can really equate all these things.

Host:

Consciousness, creation, love.

Host:

They're very, very inseparable.

Host:

Thank you for introducing this video.

Host:

This was incredibly stimulating and engaging.

Host:

So, yeah, great idea.

Ryan:

So if you guys want to watch the full episode, we barely touched this, really.

Ryan:

We're only about 20 minutes in of an hour long episode.

Ryan:

It is the I will put the link into the show notes or the description, but it's next level Soul podcast and the episode is called don't freak out.

Ryan:

Top mystic reveals human future.

Ryan:

Get ready for a strange ride, Louise K.

Ryan:

And feel free to if you're interested in her work, she has Louise K.net is her website.

Ryan:

And so thank you for listening, and thank you for Peter for indulging me in this cold reaction video.

Ryan:

But I think it was worthwhile and had some good conversation and we will see you all on the next one.

Host:

Thank you for listening to the tracking Wisdom podcast.

Host:

Join us next time as we continue the discussion.

Host:

Don't forget to follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube.

Host:

YouTube.

Host:

And visit www.

Host:

Dot eth studio.com for more information and content.

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