Bridging Comfort and Contentment in Spiritual Practice

Peter: 00:00:05

Views, interpretations and opinions expressed are not advice nor official positions presented on behalf of any organization or institution. They are for informational and entertainment purposes only. Now join Ryan and Peter for another episode of the Tracking Wisdom Podcast.

Ryan: 00:00:23

Welcome back, everybody.

We're here continuing our discussion that started with a discussion between Michael Lyden and Alan Chapman and has spawned off on some tangents with non doing over the break. I was talking with Peter and I had a question, and he suggested I bring it up on Mike.

So going back to the discussion before break, which I had mentioned that beyond just the project and the podcast, I've been invested. Invested personal time in investigating and consuming this kind of content.

So there's some sort of intellectual satisfaction or interest that comes from engaging with this content. And my question was, what do I think I'm gonna get or. Or what? What am I looking for if I'm already content? I think that was what was.

Peter: 00:01:18

Right. Yeah, I think that's what you said.

Ryan: 00:01:20

Yeah.

Peter: 00:01:20

You content. You're already content. So. And so I think Chapman actually pointed to that in his talk as to the horizon. Right. The spiritual horizon that. No matter.

And you just mentioned, like, the. The experience that you have, your current awakening experience is always your most profound.

And what Chapman says is that, you know, the infinite is always calling beyond the horizon of your current experience. And so that's what it says. So it's.

It's interesting because you're expressing it as kind of like, oh, it's your conditioning that's making you look, or it's your intellect that's making you look. And in the context of Chapman's talk, I would interpret it as, no, it's your conditioning that's making you content with what's familiar.

And it's your awakening that's calling you to explore. But I mean, it's not literally. I don't think that's literally true. But I'm just saying, in the context of the way he was mapping things.

Ryan: 00:02:30

Out, I want to address why I express it the way I do.

And then in so doing, it raised a question to me also in what he brought up, which was the reason that I frame it in that sense is because the sense and the calling, the. The pull towards the divine that I recognize is actually to stay put, to do the thing that I was expressing.

And that in the quote unquote, seeking or, you know, the. The more intellectual path, I don't feel that pull.

Peter: 00:03:10

Mm.

Ryan: 00:03:11

So that's why I kind of frame it that way.

Peter: 00:03:13

Sure.

Ryan: 00:03:13

But is that just because I'm Delusional or is it, you know, the conditioning telling me that that's where I'm being pulled. Where maybe there is something else. I don't know.

Peter: 00:03:26

I mean this is. Yeah, I mean this is where it gets annoying to be like, oh, okay, well am I listening to my inner voice or am I listening to my conditioning.

Ryan: 00:03:34

Right.

Peter: 00:03:35

Kind of thing. Right. It's like, oh, well, is like I said, is your contentment conditioning. I mean, I doubt it. There's a difference between contentment and comfort.

Right. And if you. And you know what contentment is? I mean, that's different from difference. Like this makes me come because, you know.

Yeah, because you're not avoiding the uncomfortable.

Ryan: 00:03:56

Right. I find comfort. I mean I obviously have another experiential situation in my current experience that is comfort.

But it goes against the grain of what I am feeling aligned to. I'm talking about work, right. Like I have a comfort there. There's something recognizable and familiar. Familiar about that.

But there's a running against the grain that underlies that whole thing versus this other experience I'm talking about where it seems to me to be the most truest and aligned part of what my nature is calling to do. So that's why I would express it that way. I have this conflicting interaction between my ego and my true self.

What I was saying before this, this messaging that the sense that you need to go further and, and if it. And that this thing is calling you. But what if it's not? Right? Well, I'm not saying it. What I'm experiencing is the end all. Be all of it.

Peter: 00:05:10

Right, Exactly.

Ryan: 00:05:11

But why. What am I, what am I missing?

Peter: 00:05:14

Well, well that's, that's what I was suggesting before. Is that so. First of all, you know, we keep on coming back to the observation that you're content being. You're content just sinking in. Yeah, right.

Just air quotes. Just you're content just being happy, poor.

Ryan: 00:05:33

It's rough.

Peter: 00:05:36

And you know that I think contentment and, and given that you know the difference between comfort and contentment, that contentment is trustworthy. Right. That doesn't mean that I'm going back to my earlier.

I guess it was last session, session before last proposition that your life until now and is an extended period of not doing right. It doesn't mean that you should move beyond non doing. You, you may move beyond not doing in the future. It doesn't matter.

There's no like you should or you. It may happen or may not happen. But you know, if that's your path and that's your path. I mean, that's the thing.

It's a way station in the path of awakening as we go through periods of non doing. And so if that's where you are, that's where you are.

Ryan: 00:06:37

Right.

Peter: 00:06:37

And yours apparently is just huge. And, and so I think that that's, to me that makes sense. Right.

And then equally, as you say, you know, there's some conditioning that's saying, oh, you should be exploring more. And what I was going to say, I don't think I said this earlier is that, you know, when I had my first air quotes, first awakening.

So I was in the 45 day course, I got assessed for fundamental well being and my mentor said, oh, you're, you know, you're, you're location one. Then I started feeling like I should have more spiritual doing for quite some time after that, after I got out of the course.

And you know, we kept on getting content because Jeffrey just keeps on sending content after you get in that. And then we did, I think the explorers course. And, and I started feeling like, oh, I should be doing this stuff, which is absolutely conditioning.

Like, oh, he's offering me this I should be doing, or he's saying I should be. He says explicitly, you should be doing this. It's like, oh, I should be doing it.

You know, and then it ended up like, I mean, I finally realized, like, oh no, I shouldn't, it's not that I should be doing it. I could do it. I'm comfortable not doing it. Like, it's making me uncomfortable thinking that I should do it when I'm not doing it.

Like I'm recognizing I'm not doing it. Okay, well that's what you're doing, you know, so it's easy to have conditioning. I mean, it's common.

I mean it's, it's cultural for us to have the condition. Like, oh, I heard about something, therefore I should be doing it. Right. So yeah, so it's a, it's like zeitgeist as opposed to personal conditioning.

Right. It's not your. I, I wouldn't think it's your personal conditioning that you think you should be doing this stuff.

Ryan: 00:08:33

I don't, I don't feel like I should be doing it. It's that I feel like that's the message coming out of the content. Absolutely should be doing.

Peter: 00:08:42

Absolutely.

Ryan: 00:08:43

And I know that it does. It, it doesn't have to be that it's not that you can't do it or that you shouldn't do it.

Peter: 00:08:50

So unfortunately, the Awakening. Oh, what is it called? The transformative space. Right. I think that's what Jeffrey calls it. This. The transformative technology space.

Which apparently what he means by that is like awakening content. I think. Right. It's like all this, this stuff that unfortunately for us, it exists in the context of a capitalist structure.

I mean, where do we get our content? YouTube, which is like, what's the word I want to use? Kind of the. An archetype of capitalism. Clickbait.

And so unfortunately for us, there is literally heavy marketing around these ideas now. I mean, I'm not saying that Chapman was marketing.

Ryan: 00:09:41

He's trying not.

Peter: 00:09:42

He was trying. He was like really trying not to. Like, he's like, yeah, I'm not trying to get people to sign up. Like, I don't want to.

But the context in which we learn about these things really is that. And in fact, did I tell you about my friend writing a book about that? So said she's writing a book.

Well, she intends to write a book and this is another project for us or another. Another space about the cost of awakening and the marketing and the, the fact that that. And.

And she lives in Aspen, Colorado and has for like 40 years. And she's like, you know, I live in the billionaires playground. And like literally Jeff Bezos had a birthday party there.

She was saying like, Jeff Bezos was here last week. And you can't not know that if you live here. It's like, you know, you know that it's like. And.

And so he know she was commenting on the industry of awakening. And. And because she's been. Been working through different methodologies for over 40 years, she's like.

And paid for retreats and course, as long as she wants to write a book about the kind of this industry, the cost of awakening. And so I invited her, I said, when you're ready. I think it would be a really great match for our podcast.

You know, but she's, I think with her book where I am with my book, which is like I want a book. And I said, I said, oh, actually I have two friends who just finished books so you know, we could. And oh, I sent her to your substack, actually.

Ryan: 00:11:31

Oh, really?

Peter: 00:11:32

I sent you side. And I said, oh, unfortunately I realized he focuses on creative writing.

Ryan: 00:11:36

Right.

Peter: 00:11:36

But you know, there might be useful content. It's like, oh yeah, maybe I should read your. I read a couple by the way. And I've. I've been pressuring my daughter to connect.

Ryan: 00:11:48

Yeah.

Peter: 00:11:49

Because she's.

Ryan: 00:11:50

I know she likes to write.

Peter: 00:11:51

Well, she's looking for pro. So we talked earlier about her college application process and she's specifically looking for a creative writing program.

Ryan: 00:12:01

Oh, cool.

Peter: 00:12:02

So I keep on telling. It's like, well, you know, I know someone who wrote a novel or is about to finish a novel.

Ryan: 00:12:08

About to finish.

Peter: 00:12:09

About to finish.

Ryan: 00:12:10

And a novelette.

Peter: 00:12:11

But I, but I recommended your, your substack because I did read a couple articles. I'm like, oh, this is really cool stuff about the process of writing.

Ryan: 00:12:18

So thank you, but I appreciate the.

Peter: 00:12:20

Of course she's going to ignore it.

Ryan: 00:12:22

You know, because I told her that's all right.

Peter: 00:12:27

No, I'm hoping that at some point, at least down the road sometime she'll talk to someone who's actually been doing some serious writing.

Ryan: 00:12:36

Yeah. You were talking about industry and my thought or comment was that the material is written on or created on a premise of something missing. Right.

People who feel fulfilled are not generally looking for more material.

Peter: 00:12:55

Right.

Ryan: 00:12:55

And yet sort of I am. And I guess that's where like maybe there's an disconnect in, in the delivery of the content that I'm not necessarily. I don't know.

Peter: 00:13:07

I'd say it's a mix.

Ryan: 00:13:09

Yeah.

Peter: 00:13:09

I mean that's, that's the thing with PoK is that as we've talked about before, it's. Sometimes we don't feel comfortable with that community. And for me it does bring up feelings of spiritual doing. Like, oh, I should be doing more.

I mean, because it's a very active community and people get together and they do a lot. I mean, they sit through these two hour, three hour sessions. They might do a few week. I don't know, I mean I.

But I think it's just context because when I call, like I said, you know, someone mentioned non. Like they just found themselves non doing and I'm like, oh, we should talk. And we had a two hour conversation.

And generally when I have conversations now, they're more often an hour than they are 15 minutes.

Ryan: 00:13:55

Right.

Peter: 00:13:56

Because basically this doesn't sound the right way. I'm going to say people who are worth talking to. It's not that people are worth talking to. It's not whether someone's worth talking to.

It's a thing that's worth discussing or a topic that's worth having conversation about. For me, I don't know, just when I connect with someone, it's like it just goes for two hours. It just does.

Ryan: 00:14:22

Or five if you're me.

Peter: 00:14:24

I mean, because we just don't do small talk.

Ryan: 00:14:26

Right.

Peter: 00:14:27

I mean, in like the way we're experiencing things right now, there's. There's not a lot of small talk. Although I am getting better at small talk. Am I? No, I'm not. Because I was thinking about the conversation.

Did I tell you that I offered meditation services?

Ryan: 00:14:45

No, I think you had been. Is this around the world where you're working out?

Peter: 00:14:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's.

Ryan: 00:14:51

You talked about.

Peter: 00:14:52

I'm a fitness center and I had approached the owner a few weeks ago, so it must have been since we did last.

And I'm like, oh, I'm just gonna take the plunge and suggest to her and that, you know, ask if she was interested or suggested if she was interested in having some kind of meditation services or event that I could do that because I'm just finishing my certification. And I said, you know, I, I said, what?

Whatever works for your clientele, whether it's for free or for fee or, you know, whatever, however you would want to do it, it's something I'd be interested in. And it was a surprisingly long conversation. Like, we just chatted. I chattered, I mentioned Reiki. She mentioned the podcast.

Ryan: 00:15:37

Oh, really?

Peter: 00:15:38

Yes, she said, she said, oh, I heard you have a podcast. You. I have you. I have your podcast on my list. I was like, oh, have you listened to. She goes, well, I'm. I'm finishing an audiobook.

But Sophie, Sophie told me it's really good.

Ryan: 00:15:49

Who is this?

Peter: 00:15:50

My trainer is Sophie and the owner is Sarah. And so, yeah, so anyway, thank you.

Ryan: 00:15:57

For doing the marketing for me.

Peter: 00:16:01

Yeah, so, yeah, so it's interesting. So it's not. It's maybe more shining the light.

Ryan: 00:16:07

Yeah.

Peter: 00:16:07

And like talking about what I'm actually interested in rather than making small talk and finding that people are interested in. But it's selective. Like, I don't talk to everybody and there's some people I've started conversations with. I'm just like.

Ryan: 00:16:24

I was just going to say what.

I feel like the crux of what my sentiment is, is around non doing, which is, I mean, I'm coming at from it, from the other perspective, which is I feel like people are saying do. And I feel like maybe I'm, I'm equating the term practice with doing.

And when I hear a necessity and, and you had said you wanted to talk about spiritual non doing. And maybe.

Peter: 00:16:53

Well, that's just what I was saying before about when I was finishing the 45 day program and I kept on getting materials. But I think that, you know, unless you are, unless you're reclusive.

You're gonna feel the cultural conditioning of, oh, look, there's all this new stuff.

Ryan: 00:17:15

Yeah.

Peter: 00:17:16

And. And there's that condition of like, oh, new. You know, speaking of which, I was gonna.

I was gonna talk about my new car, but I don't know if I should do that. No, because I. I got a new car.

Ryan: 00:17:29

Okay.

Peter: 00:17:30

And my previous car, I got a base model because it's like, oh, that's the one with the best mileage. The base. The hybrid. The base model has the best mileage. And the upper trim levels, the battery, I don't know, whatever.

Ryan: 00:17:48

Okay.

Peter: 00:17:48

Like, they. They sacrifice battery space. It's. The battery's not as good. So the upper trim levels tend to have less mileage.

Ryan: 00:17:55

Okay.

Peter: 00:17:56

And so it's time to get a new car. I said, you know what? I'm retired. I can afford it. I'm. I'm like, I'm going to get a top trim level for a change. Like, I'm just.

I'm just getting the top trim level. I'm not going to, you know, think about it. And. And so I did. And it comes with alloy. Like the thin, alloy tires.

I mean, the alloy big alloy wheels with the thin tires. And it's like more susceptible road damage. And if you do rec wheel, they're like, yeah, it's like. And so. And I'm realizing, like, oh. And then.

And then it's got all these sensors, like the bumper. Each bumper has, like four sensors on. So basically now it's not a bumper. Right.

Because if you bump it now, you've just created how many hundred dollars of damage to the camera or whatever. And so I'm feeling very protective of the car, which I never have before. Like, I've had new cars before, but I just been like, yeah, whatever.

It's a car.

Ryan: 00:18:56

Right.

Peter: 00:18:57

So I. I've had a couple. Over the weekend, we drove up to Salem, and I was really uncomfortable.

Ryan: 00:19:05

Really?

Peter: 00:19:05

Because bad drivers. Yeah. It's, like, uptight about my car. I'm like, okay, I got to let go of the. Like, this is too much. Like, I don't. That's. I.

I hadn't realized that choosing to get high trim would be. Choosing to. Would. Would be upgrading my level of concern.

Ryan: 00:19:28

Right about.

Peter: 00:19:29

For the. For the possession. Exactly. You know? And so I'm like, huh. So it's a. It's a lesson.

Ryan: 00:19:35

It is a lesson. That's interesting.

Peter: 00:19:36

It's like, oh, I don't like this. You know, like, oh. So anyway, that was just an observation.

But Going back to Chapman, I wanted to swing back to Chapman's practice because I had an interesting. So what was your experience of. Of the angel practice when you tried it?

Ryan: 00:19:55

I don't know exactly what you're looking for, but I would say that it felt aligned with some. With a practice I would typically. Or if I were to do a practice, that that would be something I'd be inclined to do.

Peter: 00:20:07

So I had two distinctly different reactions the first time I did it. So. And I have to say, I didn't, like, formally sit down and, you know, the way he. The way he let it, I just did it afterwards.

You kind of tried it on for size. And my first time, I had a lot of resistance to it, which was. I'm like, oh, my God.

I still got so much Western cultural, Christian indoctrination around doing an invocation. And it was like, oh, this is, you know, I mean, it's pretty benign. My holy garden in angel. It's hard to see how that could.

Ryan: 00:20:46

You're not even invoking. You're just consenting.

Peter: 00:20:48

I know.

Ryan: 00:20:48

You're allowing.

Peter: 00:20:49

I know, I know, I know. But I definitely had that experience of discomfort of. Of childhood religious anxiety, which I.

I was never religiously anxious as a child, but anxiety from my religious childhood. And then when I did it at night, more. More seriously, I've been doing it in bed, I found myself. Well, I guess because he said, you can use a name.

Well, what he said was, if you've met the angel, you could use a name. And so I was. So I was conflating the practice with the green Tara practice.

Ryan: 00:21:23

Okay.

Peter: 00:21:24

Because it just feels very much the same. Although the green tar practice is more formalized. There are more specific.

Well, there are specific steps, and there's a specific standard image, basically, which is, you know, that this figure has specific limb positions and hand positions and objects associated that you visualize with it. So it's not the same in that sense, because the angel practice is just pure. Purely a verbal practice. You don't version. You don't visualize anything.

You wait for the something to show up. So I don't know if it's worth me doing because I seem to be conflating those two, but I did feel like it was helpful.

I don't know if it's just because it returned me to the Green Tower practice, but I wasn't actively doing green tar practice. I was just. I did kind of how I had Tara in mind while I was doing the recitation. I was just trying to relax and. And Recite.

So I'll probably continue playing with it just because I think it would be cool to have, you know, a vision.

Ryan: 00:22:34

Or something like that, which he did say takes time.

Peter: 00:22:37

I know, I know. So it's like. Well, I don't know how much. How much patience because, you know, like you, I. It's like I'm not really looking for something.

You had mentioned something about suffering and creation not being. Oh, yeah. Creation. Oh, yeah. Let me. Yeah. So you use the phrase my place in creation.

There's one phrase you used and then another one you used was participating in creation. And participating. Creation could mean two things like participating in the creation. Capital C, or participating in the process activity of creation.

So I was just curious whether you meant one or the other specifically when you said participating in creation.

Ryan: 00:23:33

So little C. You mean like writing a book?

Peter: 00:23:37

Yeah, playing guitar.

Ryan: 00:23:38

Yeah, I equate them both to the same. The little C creations are my part in the big secretion.

Peter: 00:23:48

Yep. It's the. I think. I think Chapman also talked about the fractal. The. The holographic. The part contains the whole.

Ryan: 00:24:02

Yeah. I think.

Peter: 00:24:02

Oh, remember the. The part contains a hole and the hole contains the part. That was interesting.

Ryan: 00:24:07

Yes. I mean, that. That points similarly to the metaphor of the ocean and the wave.

Peter: 00:24:15

Yeah. Except he was much more explicit about it from the swimming pool and the.

Ryan: 00:24:20

Yeah. What was it? It was the swimming pool.

Peter: 00:24:22

Yeah. So I wasn't sure. Oh, that was something that. Okay.

So first of all, he said that what you find as you go along is that looking inward, you find the infinite, you find the great openness that contains everything. And then at the same time, it's all around you. Like looking inward, you find what's all around you. And that there's this.

I want to call it a kind of a top of topological paradox. Right. Of like the inside being the outside kind of.

Ryan: 00:25:00

Yeah.

Peter: 00:25:00

You know, it's a Klein bottle, I think, is a. It's a. It's a mathematical object that. Where the outside is in the inside. So that was one description he had. And then the other one.

So that one I recognize. And.

But the other one was he said if you throw the contents of your room, of your room into a swimming pool, it all gets wet and it all participates in the wetness, but it's still. Each item is still itself. And that was different from teachings on oneness that I'm familiar with. Right. Emptiness, oneness, whatever.

Now you're gonna kind of relate. Well, aspects of true nature. Of true nature. Right. But he. He was very Clear that all the objects are still the objects.

And the way I interpret that, I, I, I, I want to disagree with him in the absolute because it sounded like he's describing the absolute. And in the absolute, objects are no longer objects.

Ryan: 00:26:09

Right.

Peter: 00:26:09

I mean, just like in Hoffman's ontology, icons don't exist. Right, right.

So it seems to me, which is another thing he talked about, but it seemed to me that he was kind of moving back and forth between the condition, the unconditioned, and saying from conditioned reality all those things still exist.

Ryan: 00:26:31

Right.

Peter: 00:26:32

Conditioned reality never stops being conditioned reality. You touch the unconditioned, and the unconditioned contains all the conditioned. And the condition still is conditioned.

It's just that you can see that there are no separations.

Ryan: 00:26:46

Right.

Peter: 00:26:47

And so it seemed, I mean, that's the way I would express it. And it seemed like he was expressing in a very different way.

Ryan: 00:26:53

If I recall correctly, my interpretation of that analogy was, was specifically to recognize the individual experience. Still like that. The process of awakening doesn't negate your experience of being individual in the condition space.

That's how I kind of interpreted what he was trying to say there. That.

Peter: 00:27:19

No, no, I agree. No, I, I agree. I just remembered something else that he said.

Ryan: 00:27:24

I mean, that's essentially all I have to say.

Peter: 00:27:26

Well, so he said something about people who decide to purge first person pronouns from their language. Do you remember that? Like you no longer talk about. I, I thought he had talked about people experiencing oneness and whatever.

It just, it just raised that idea. Oh, oh, okay. Ontology. So tell me about your phrase, your place in creation.

Ryan: 00:27:53

The character I play in the dance of life, the stage in the play in which conventional reality is what we frame it.

Peter: 00:28:02

Right. Yeah.

Ryan: 00:28:03

Is placed. And, and the character and position that I play in this current iteration and scene of that creation.

Peter: 00:28:13

So is that implying a dictate or should an intent like I'm intended to. There is an intention for me to follow because I thought it might have that connotation. It had that connotation for me.

Ryan: 00:28:28

So it does, but less so like a should that there's an alignment with my higher self in a way to navigate this time and space in a way that aligns with whatever my higher.

Peter: 00:28:48

Self is, it's purpose. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because that's something that came up for me recently.

I don't know if I talked about last time was purpose because in, in a, in a private session, I was describing this flow of doing that was not, it was not doing, doing. Right, right, right. It was just like, this is what I'm doing right now. It's just like I am introducing myself to people.

I am, you know, talking to someone about making meditation available. There was a little intellectual thing of should, but it really didn't feel like having the conversation.

Didn't feel like, oh, I should be having this conversation. It's like just totally, I'm having this conversation. I'm completely present.

Ryan: 00:29:37

Did that feel aligned with purpose?

Peter: 00:29:39

Very, very much. And. And that's so. To me, see, that's moving out of non doing, but not in a. Not in a conventional way. Maybe it is non doing. Maybe that is non doing.

Ryan: 00:29:53

Still say non doing.

Peter: 00:29:54

Yeah, but see, now I'm struggling with the fact that I feel purpose, but I'm not doing.

Ryan: 00:30:04

There's the problem, I guess.

Peter: 00:30:06

Right?

Ryan: 00:30:06

Yeah.

Peter: 00:30:07

And. And, and so. So, well, so for instance, the meditation program that I'm supposed to write, I should write. I haven't been.

And then there's some conflict there.

Ryan: 00:30:18

Okay. So I shouldn't get on your ass about that.

Peter: 00:30:21

Yeah, well, we might talk about accountability.

Ryan: 00:30:25

I'm just kidding.

Peter: 00:30:26

No, actually. Well, I'll tell you about it. But so the.

The last notes I had, which are actually the first notes I had on Chapman, were creation, integration, and relationship, which I guess I can't really speak to. I thought they were interesting elements of his talk because he did talk about integration. I can't remember what he said about it.

He talked about magic as being creation, which my sense is that was more in alignment with what you talk about as participating in creation by performing creative acts. And then he also talked about relationship. These seemed like key concepts to me out of his talk.

And relationship is, for me, like a really big marker of awakening experience. Yeah. I mean, I would say in the past year, my relationship to relationship has completely changed.

Ryan: 00:31:30

Right.

Peter: 00:31:30

All right, so I think I've run dry on Chapman, and I would really like to talk about the threads model.

Ryan: 00:31:38

Yeah. So thank you for listening to this extended discussion on Michael Lydon and Alan Chapman. I will link Alan Chapman's information below.

And next discussion, we will be talking about a new model on. Or an alternative model, I suppose, of. How would you call it? Location or places.

Peter: 00:32:00

It's a new model of the awakening process.

Ryan: 00:32:04

Yeah. And it's called the Thruster. A map. Yes. So tune in to that episode to learn more. See ya.

Peter: 00:32:11

Bye. Thank you for listening to the Tracking Wisdom podcast. Join us next time as we continue the discussion.

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