Decoding Spiritual Experiences: The Utility of the Multi Thread Model

Peter: 00:00:05

Views, interpretations and opinions expressed are not advice nor official positions presented on behalf of any organization or institution. They are for informational and entertainment purposes only. Now join Ryan and Peter for another episode of the Tracking Wisdom Podcast.

Ryan: 00:00:23

Good morning, everybody. I'm Ryan.

Peter: 00:00:25

I'm Peter.

Ryan: 00:00:25

And today we're going to discuss something called the Multi Thread Model. This is available on multidharma.net created by Pierce Salguero.

So it can be discouraging and even confusing for people who find themselves on an awakening path or think that they may be on an awakening path and their experience may not fully find itself in accord with what popular traditional models that describe the awakening pathway.

Present in one example is maybe the conflict between this sense of emptiness versus oneness and how that kind of has a discrepant feel and sense to it.

But some people experience an overwhelming emptiness versus oneness, and that if the model or the pathway that you're following or investigating describes emptiness in a way that maybe feels like it's a requirement in the pathway, that might cause somebody to be discouraged if they're not experiencing that, or even find some confusion in what that means.

And so today we're going to talk about the multi thread model and how it presents a pathway that is a little bit more open to what any one particular person's pathway may be. And so that's what we're going to discuss today.

So the idea of the pathways and in the way it's presented on multidharma.net is that these models are like maps.

And maps inherently have strengths and weaknesses, and their purpose, their utility is in adopting a map that will give you the strengths that you need in that moment and where the weaknesses may not impact your use of that model.

And so traditional models, in the way that they've been presented historically, often follow stringent or very specific pathways of experience that one can expect on their pathway to an enlightenment or an awakening, and that may not actually be present in everybody's experience.

And also, traditional models tend to use descriptions that seem more like waypoints and steps or stages, rather than a continuum of experience or a spectrum that allows for a variety of nuance in what somebody may expect. So for the Threads model, how is the threads model different? Peter?

Peter: 00:03:10

Well, it's designed not to map an expectation and lay out a path, but it's really designed to be a tool to describe your own path. It's designed to be applied to one's own personal experience.

It's a way of thinking about mapping an awakening experience just to expand a little bit on the idea of maps and limitations, the website gives three or four examples of different projections of maps like this. The Mercator projection, there's the polar projection.

And each of these maps are useful for different things, whether it's, you know, navigating a ship or describing weather patterns. You know, there are different times when the different types of projections are more useful.

The Mercator projection removes the distortions so that you can draw a straight line between two points and you can use it to navigate, but that creates other distortions which won't let you do things like, and I'm just saying, for example, weather patterns or something like that. Some other application that you might use a map for would be limited by a certain type of map.

And so the Threads model is useful for mapping your own experience.

When you find your, your own experience doesn't align with the traditional map, it's limited in that it may be less helpful than a traditional map in comparing your experience to someone else who has a similar experience.

So, you know, Ryan and I would refer to the Martin matrix to say, oh, you know, are you feeling in location three today or are you feeling in location two today? And it's easy for us to do that. And we know, we both know what we're talking about.

If we were to try to use the Threads model to do that, even if we were much more familiar with the model, it probably would be. It's less designed to do that.

Ryan: 00:05:11

Yeah, yeah.

Also the map and the Threads model is designed as an alternative tool if whatever tool you're using isn't working or feeling quite aligned, or that there's a weakness in that tool that is somehow obstructive to your own journey.

And you know, we had been talking about potentially a traditionalist in Buddhism or some other model might find this model jarring or in conflict to what they understand. And the idea here is that this isn't a better map, it's not a worse map, it's just a different map.

And it's a different map for those who may find the traditional trajectory not quite in accord with their own experience.

Peter: 00:05:58

And I think we want to, you know, repeat the idea that we're strong believers in having a well equipped toolbox and that you have a variety of tools that you use according to the situation, according to the conversation that you want to have or according to the specific exploration that you want to do.

You don't preference, you don't prefer, you know, the trite metaphor is, you know, you know, you don't prefer your hammer and Then treat everything as if it's a nail. If you. You're not dealing with the nail, put down the hammer, pick up your screwdriver, and use the appropriate tool.

So this is just another appropriate tool. It is not the best tool. It is another map that's designed to fill a gap in the toolbox of spiritual maps that the Creator saw.

He's like, oh, this, you know, these things aren't making sense to me. What does make sense and what might help some other people make sense of what they're experiencing?

Ryan: 00:06:53

Yeah. And he. So he talks about. He highlights four specific threads, but that it's not the only threads.

So the threads he highlights typically are oneness, emptiness, psyche, emptiness, energy and psyche. And what I found particularly resonant about this idea is, number one, I appreciate the. The concept that none of these are required.

There's no requisite thread that everybody needs to experience at some point in order to progress to the end result.

These are describing, for example, emptiness, the experience or phenomena related to non duality and non existent versus oneness, where the experience is more of unity and love and divinity.

The energy thread is the experience related, similar to things like kundalini or chi or prana and the psyche, which is one of particular note, both to the author, but also to Peter, which is the phenomena relating to unconscious mind, including some of the intergenerational or ancestral. Ancestral. Wow, that was a hard one. Trauma and sociocultural issues that can come across, as we have described, as conditioning.

And so those are the four primary threads that he describes.

But he's also very specific that your own, your own pathway and the experiences, your individualized experiences, the things that are key to your path into your experience in the moment are your threads. And that these threads, you may be on a single thread at any one point in time.

You can jump threads, but you can also experience multiple threads at any one time. The thread that I found most resonant was the oneness.

This is the thing that I find most prominent in my experience is the unified, the sense of unity with all of creation and that underlying unconditional love and connectedness to divinity. However, emptiness is a frequently described experience, particularly I think, in the Buddhist model. Is that true? And others.

I'm sure that, you know, in this space of content, people talk about emptiness. But if I'm not experiencing emptiness, and I don't even really, I have a hard time even conceptualizing what that means.

Does that mean that I'm not on an awakening path?

That being the question that without this kind of model without this map might come up to somebody who's not experiencing the emptiness, but maybe experiences oneness. And so I found that particularly resonant in this model. And I know you said that psyche was a prominent part of your experience.

Peter: 00:10:04

Right, Right. So just say, I think a little bit about why he starts with these four threads.

In part because they're represented in traditional paths of awakening, such as shamanic tradition or yogic tradition or Buddhist tradition or Christian tradition, and also because in his conversations with people on awakening paths, these are common experiences. But, you know, as Ryan said, I think the really key feature is that none of them are requisite.

And he, you know, he allows that you could have, you could experience more than four threads in your, in your path, or you could experience your entire awakening path on only one thread. Now, that's less common, but it's not impossible.

And I think the limitation of a lot of traditional teachings, and, you know, we always come to this, but, you know, there's a question as to whether it's, is it a limitation of the teaching or is it a limitation of the teacher? Right. When you have teachers who say, no, that's wrong, you know, that's, that's not part of what we're doing, ignore that. That's just a distraction.

When someone more skillful could potentially say, okay, if that's what you're experiencing right now, let's work with that. And we can use that to go deeper and make progress.

And that's the strength of the multi thread model is that Pierce offers a way to make progress from wherever you are and to know that you can come up with your. Not that you can invent it, but if your experience is outside of what's being described, then you can incorporate your experience to the model.

Audubon James Audubon, great naturalist, illustrator of bird life, said, and the creator of basically, you know, birding handbooks, said, if my painting disagrees with what you're seeing in the field, if it, if the bird doesn't match the painting, trust the bird. And I think, I think Pierce subscribes to that. You know, your experience is what counts.

So one thing I wanted to provide in specific, as I said, he offers a way to progress from wherever you are. And of course, it's only in the website. He's only describing four threads. So there are only four methods.

But presumably, you know, if he, if he worked with someone regarding a thread that's not listed, he might be able to come up with another method. But so for each thread, there's a Question.

And if you, an in, if you do this inquiry, it can help you progress farther down that thread towards full, full awakening. So if you were experiencing the sense of emptiness, the emptiness thread, the inquiry would be from this perspective.

What is it in my experience that still seems to have a reality to it from the oneness thread, or also could be described as love?

The question is, what still seems to be separate in this perspective from the energy thread, what still seems solid or static, and from the psyche thread, what still seems unacceptable or unwelcome? And, and that is interesting to me because that has been a big part of how I've been taught is this inquiry into what's unacceptable.

So I guess, I guess that takes me off in a different direction on this. Did you want to, did you want to address something else on the outline or.

Ryan: 00:13:52

No, I mean, how far are we going off course? Let's just go. Just, Just go with it.

Peter: 00:13:57

Yeah. So.

So one thing as we reviewed this content that was, that was a little confusing to me was in talking about psyche or conditioning or the unconscious thread, Pierce says that in many traditions, and he names Buddhism in particular, this is a. What's the word? It's kind of an outside. It's a deviation from the path. It's a description.

It's a place where teachers would tell you, no, that's not right.

And his example is that in Buddhism there are these aspects of psyche, of, you know, subconscious experience coming up that are called the defilements and the hindrances. I was going to say they're called defiance, defy defilements because they are hindrances to awakening. Yes.

So in Buddhist traditions, tradition, they're called hindrances and they're viewed, as I said, as hindrances to awakening.

But the way I've been taught is that these, these experiences come up like, and, and these are things like sleepiness, agitation, anger, restlessness, that they're considered hindrances. But I've been taught that they are signs of deepening, signs of approaching progress that we have an opportunity to work with now.

And so that was confusing to me because I think of my teachers being Buddhist. But as I reflected on it, I realized, oh, this is not traditional Buddhist teaching. What I'm getting is Western Buddhism.

And Western Buddhism is, is closely aligned to psychology, to Western psychology. And in fact, two of my teachers are both practicing Buddhists and practicing psychologists are trained as clinical psychologists.

And so if you read the site, as a Western Buddhist, it's possible that's confusing because Western Buddhists may not be as dogmatic as traditional Buddhists. And Pierce's background is as an Asian scholar, and so he's working from original source and you know, those very specifically Eastern traditions.

And I'm kind of curious to have a conversation with him about what he thinks of Western bosom is. Does he see this. Does he see this kind of broadening?

So anyway, that's just something I found personally quite interesting because as I said, the way I've been taught and a lot of the work I do personally is looking for resistance, which is another way of saying it's unacceptable. Right. And so Pierce's question of what's unacceptable is exactly kind of what I've been working with for going on a couple of years now.

So I thought that was interesting. And then realizing like, oh, it's because it's not. It's not strictly Buddhist, it's not traditional Buddhist approach.

It's actually more of a psychological kind of psychotherapy or Jungian maybe approach to shadow. Shadow work. So. So yeah, and then, and then that he does specifically say the psyche is described by Jungian theory.

Ryan: 00:17:17

Yeah. So what's your takeaway?

Peter: 00:17:19

I'm still. Might I need to investigate further because I'm. I'm very curious about what progress looks like in this model.

What was very helpful to me was the idea of kind of simultaneous or near simultaneous experience of these different. Or experience of these experiences, so having emptiness and oneness and conditioning.

And I should say that part of the point of the threads model is to envision a tapestry or as I say, a patterned sweater that you might be wearing, you know, and as you draw your eyes across the pattern, certain threads come to the front like, oh, now I'm. Here's the white part and here's the blue part. And the point is that when you see the white part, it's not that the blue threads don't exist.

They're behind the white part. And when you see the blue part, the white threads, when you turn your sweater over, the white threads are there behind everything.

So, you know, if these things are in your experience and you shift back and forth, they're not disappearing.

Which is congruent with, you know, Jeffrey's model of fundamental being, that your fundamental being can be masked but it's not disappearing that he says, you know, people often feel like they're falling out of fundamental well being when they are not. It's possible to fall out of, well, fundamental being, he says, but it's not as common as people think it is.

It's not as common as People reporting it because they lose sight of their fundamental well being.

And you know, from a Western Buddhist perspective, you know, Tara Brak talks about seeing the gold or the inner wisdom or the true self, and that this can be obscured by your daily experience or, you know, your conditioning. When a driver cuts you off and like, where'd my Buddha nature go? It's not here at all. I'm just in road rage.

And it's like, no, your Buddha nature is still there. It's just obscured by your immediate experience.

And so I like the way that the threads model showed that somehow, somehow thinking about the multi threads, and for me in particular, holding these three threads together and just knowing that they're kind of there in a bundle in my life and that as I go through time, I see different aspects of it, different parts at different times, somehow that was very helpful to me. It was very, I don't know, empowering or reassuring or something.

It was, it was meaningful to me in a way that saying, you know, oh, you're just losing your sight of your fundamental being or oh, your Buddha nature is just obscured was less helpful to me than having this visual of actual physical threads. Yeah, so that was definitely a strong experience I had as I read this. I'm like, oh, wow. Like, it was definitely a notable experience for me.

Ryan: 00:20:31

Yeah, yeah. I found. So we mentioned that it was a potential weakness of this.

But one thing that I found useful in conceptualizing the awakening experience in this way was in fact the absence of stages and steps and progress and being able to kind of point to, oh, I'm here in this area of the journey. And I think I find that useful because in my intuitive experience, I think that intuitively, in my experience, I don't.

So number one, I think that often the idea of stages and steps can be interpreted in a way that is counterproductive, in a way that creates jealousy and judgment. Judgment and what's the word?

Peter: 00:21:28

Striving.

Ryan: 00:21:29

Yeah. Yes. Like, I should be here, I want to get there.

And, and I think that for me, because I feel like the experience is very fluid, conceptualizing it in this way not only aligns well with how I, I intuitively kind of experience the movement throughout the path. It also kind of alleviates some of those shoulds or. And that can even be like, oh, you know, a pompous thing like, oh, I'm in, I'm here. And.

But then if the experience changes in a way that maybe seems like you're falling back, then. Exactly.

And I think that my key takeaway here is that at least in the way this model describes the pathway, you're exactly where you're supposed to be and what you're experiencing is exactly what you should be experiencing. And if you think you're on a pathway to awakening, you are. Maybe we all are in some way, shape or form.

Peter: 00:22:36

Yeah, that calls to mind for me also the idea of the tools that are appropriate to you at the time. So if having a progressive model is inspiring to you.

Ryan: 00:22:48

Right.

Peter: 00:22:48

And you're feeling enthusiastic, and I think I'm getting closer and I'm going to keep on, you know, doing this practice because it's really, I can, you know, I can see my progress. Great. If that is helpful to you, that is a model that you should be working with. Right.

And then when you're feeling discouraged with that, you know, it's not going the way you want. Maybe it's time to pick up a different tool and look at the multi thread model and say, yeah, everything's still okay. I can, I can progress.

I mean, this is something I find curious about the model is he gives these questions as how to progress, but he doesn't describe what progression is. Like, well, how do I know when I'm progressing? You know, But I think, you know, I think the gist is you'll.

When you know, you know, you know, you look at you, you do these inquiries as to, you know, what's in my experience right now, that's not acceptable. And by doing that inquiry and opening yourself to the response of the inner wisdom on that or what? I really have a sense of emptiness.

But what is it, you know, I really have a sense of emptiness, but I feel like I'm not fully awakening. Which you should. And so what is it that. That still seems real? Like, oh, everything's empty, everything's empty.

But, oh, if I look hard enough, I can find something that I just can't see that as not real. That's still very solid. That, you know, that's still very real. So it's interesting that he gives you the method.

And then of course, this is part of our continued exploration because we have opportunity to talk to, to actually talk to Pierce. I've talked to him a couple times, but now I'm starting to have more questions like, so what is, you know, what does this look like?

So I'm, I am very curious about that.

Ryan: 00:24:34

It'd be amazing to get him on the show. I don't know if that can happen, but someday maybe it will.

Peter: 00:24:41

It's on the wish list.

Ryan: 00:24:42

Yes, it is.

So I hope this was helpful, especially if you have felt any discouragement or confusion around your experience and how it aligns with a traditional model. I encourage you guys to review multidharma.net and read about the thread model and ask any questions.

Contact us through email, email or in the comments on YouTube and we will see you guys on the next one.

Peter: 00:25:17

Thank you for listening to the Tracking Wisdom podcast. Join us next time as we continue the discussion.

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